One of the frustrating parts of fisheries advocacy is that you meet a lot of well-meaning people along the way, folks with the sort of energy that, if properly focused, could help move the management process forward. But far too many such folks have come to some false conclusions about management issues, that they cling to as tenaciously as a barnacle clings to a stone, and when that happens, their practical contributions to the management process fall close to zero.
As Mark Twain
once allegedly said (but very possibly didn’t),
“It ain’t what you don’t know that get’s you into trouble, it’s
what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”
In the fisheries arena, a lot of people getg
themselves into trouble that way.
Recently, I’ve been in an ongoing debate with a charter boat
captain from Massachusetts, who is completely convinced that state regulators
destroyed the winter flounder fishery by increasing the trip
limit for inshore trawlers from 250 to 500 pounds.
He claims that fishing was getting steadily better since he began fishing the area about 25 years ago, but that it started to tank around 2012, after the trip limit was increased, and the flounder were exposed to much higher levels of fishing pressure.
He also argues that the entire Gulf of Maine stock of winter flounder
are overfished, and that in order to address the problem, the trawlers should
be banned from state waters, and forced to fish farther offshore.
He offers no data to support his opinion about the trawlers, but refuses to
consider the possibility that such opinion could be wrong. Contradictory facts are dismissed as "lies" or the products of a "corrupt" management system.
I looked into the issue a little bit, first just out of
curiosity and then, as he continued to discount any data that conflicted with
his beliefs, to try to explain a little bit about how the fishery management
process actually works and, how his concerns fit inton the overall management program.
It turns out that the Gulf of Maine winter flounder is the only one
of the three winter flounder stocks recognized by the New England Fishery Management Council and
National Marine Fisheries Service that hasn’t been declared overfished. That’s not because the Gulf of Maine stock is
necessarily more abundant than the other two, but because the
model used to determine the health of the population is incapable of estimating
spawning stock biomass, and does not allow biologists to develop biological
reference points that could be used to determine the state of the stock.
The
most recent stock assessment update strongly suggests that Gulf of Maine
flounder abundance may have been declining since 2014. Thus, it’s possible that, if biological
reference points could be calculated, and a good estimate of the biomass
produced, the Gulf of Maine stock would be found to be overfished as well. But it’s also possible that, if
such calculations could be made, biologists would find that while abundance had
declined, spawning stock biomass had not fallen below the threshold (one-half
of the biomass needed to produce maximum sustainable yield) that defines an
overfished stock.
Right now, it's impossible to know. The data just isn't there.
And that lack of knowledge is important, because if
the Gulf of Maine stock of winter flounder was found to be overfished, that
finding would have clear legal consequences.
Pursuant to the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management
Act, NMFS would be required to implement a rebuilding plan for the stock
within two years, and that rebuilding plan would have to be designed to rebuild
the stock within ten years after its initiation.
Thus, one cannot merely do as the captain in question would
do, and declare the stock to be overfished based on “common sense.” Stock status must be determined in accordance with objective standards, not only to accord with Magnuson-Stevens, but also to
ensure
that the resulting regulations comply with the Administrative Procedures Act's standards, which require, in part, that a
“reviewing court…hold unlawful and set aside agency action,
findings, and conclusions found to be arbitrary, capricious, an abuse of
discretion, or otherwise not in accordance with law…[or] unsupported by
substantial evidence… [emphasis added, internal
formatting omitted]”
Basing a regulation on someone's subjective view of “common sense”
rather than on objective data would pretty well guarantee that such regulation
would not survive its trip to the courthouse.
And when you look at the data in Massachusetts, it doesn’t
even really accord with the captain’s memory, much less his claims of cause and
effect.
His argument was that recreational fishing got increasingly better from the late 1990s to 2012 or so, then began to decline as more commercial effort entered the fishery. But when we look at recreational and commercial catch data for the fishery, we see a very different story unfold.
Recreational and commercial landings reached historically low levels at the same time, so to blame increasing commercial landings for the steady decline of the winter flounder population, particularly when the most recent stock assessment update found that overfishing isn’t occurring, doesn’t accord with the available data.
Certainly, overfishing may have played a role in the early years, and even well into the first decade of this century, but the fact that both commercial and recreational landings, as well as estimates of stock abundance, is waning even though fishing mortality remains acceptably low suggests that causes other than fishing, perhaps ocean warming (the Gulf of Maine is one of the most rapidly warming bodies of water on the planet), are driving its continued decline.
But, again, we lack the knowledge to identify what those causes might be.
To be fair, the flounder situation might have been a little different
around Boston Harbor, where that particular captain usually fished. But even if it were, that fact would demonstrate why
statistically valid data, rather than an individual’s perceptions of what is going on, ought to drive
the fishery management process. Because
yes, there may be local differences in abundance—after the striped
bass stock collapsed in the late 1970s, there was still unusually good fishing
for very large fish at Block Island and Cape Cod’s Pochet’s Hole—but local
observations of abundance or scarcity are not appropriate drivers of management
action, which needs to be based on information that reflects the overall state of the stock.
Gulf of Maine winter flounder are, after all, managed as a
unified stock, and not broken down into local populations (if, indeed, local
populations exist, as they do in the Southern New England/Mid-Atlantic stock;
my suggestion that the captain in question try to find someone to finance a study on whether the fish around Boston Harbor comprised a discreet
population, and should be subject to special state management measures, did not
receive a warm reception). It is
the overall status of the stock that drives management, and not the seeming
abundance or absence of fish in one particular spot.
Thus, the captain in question has fallen into a trap that snares far too many people who have the desire, and the enthusiasm, to get involved in the management process, but who insist on elevating their own opinions above demonstrable facts. Scuh people get frustrated with fishery managers who refuse to elevate their anecdotal comments, and perceived correlations of cause and effect, above statistically valid, verifiable data.
They then take out
their frustrations on the management system, unwilling to ask, and perhaps not wanting to know, whether the fault
lies not in the system, but in themselves.
If we are to have healthy, sustainable fisheries, which continue to provide food, recreation, and employment in the long term,
management of those fisheries must be based on the best scientific information
available.
If we base management on our guesses, our biases, and on what we want to be true, we only do a disservice to the fish-- and to
ourselves.
Charles,
ReplyDeleteLike I told you countless times, you do not need a PHD to see that the flounder in Boston Harbor steadily went downhill for rec anglers as the commercial effort increased. Then, as the commercial effort increased, the commercial landing increased and stayed level even though there were more and more draggers fishing. Less fish per boat for the same effort does not give you the true picture but your stats did not take that into account.
You say I offer "not a shred of evidence" of what I say is true but I challenge that. I told you if you speak to 1000 recreational fishermen, tackle shops and charter operators that flounder fish in the Quincy/Boston area you will get the same story I told you so I ask two questions:
1. did you try to speak to anyone else?
2. In that you say what my observations tell me is "anecdotal eyewitness statements" then how many "anecdotal eyewitness statements" will bear enough weight to make you believe? 10? 100? 1000?
Give me the number and I will get them for you.
You keep providing opinion, not fact. One opinion unsupported by fact, or 1,000 opinions unsupported by objective fact, is still opinion unsupported by fact. You keep talking about increasing commercial effort, but ignore the fact that Massachusetts commercial flounder landings were highest in the early 2000s, a period when you claim that fishing was getting better, and declining during the period when fishing was getting worse. Get me just one peer-reviewed stock assessment that suppo0rts your position, and I will believe you. But without statistically valid data to support your position, you have no position worth listening to.
DeleteIf we are to have healthy, sustainable fisheries, which continue to provide food, recreation, and employment in the long term, management of those fisheries must be based on the best scientific information available.
ReplyDelete___________________________________________________
Also, I repeatedly pointed out how that "best scientific information" is flawed and yet you continue to deny that one plus one equals two. I said use common sense.
In your statement above, where is the scientific data that says what I'm telling you about rec fishing in Boston Harbor is NOT being destroyed by commercial excess? Do the catch statistics specify what is being caught in Boston Harbor?
The quote from you above states "recreation" and "employment". Where is you (and managements) consideration for the thousands of Boston Harbor area recreational fishermen who can no longer catch winter flounder (like the way they were "managed" in NJ, NY, Ct., RI and the rest of the USA)? What about the employment of the tackle shops and charter operators?
I'll wait....
The science isn't flawed because you disagree with it; in that situation, it is far more likely that your opinion is flawed. If the managers can come up with numbers supporting their position, and you can't come up with numbers supporting yours, that's a pretty good indication that your position is flawed, and the managers' views are based on much firmer ground.
DeleteAs far as Boston Harbor goes, even if the number of flounder goes, local abundance is not indicative of the health of the entire stock; there are always local fluctuations. The 2020 stock assessment update does not find the Gulf of Maine winter flounder stock to be experiencing overfishing. Focusing on one place provides a distorted picture of the stock's overall status.
DeletePart 1:
ReplyDeleteNeedless to say, since a fishery advisor asked me to look and comment upon this latest fishery minutiae, as this particular blog post was written by someone who spends his lonely time browsing the 'Dark Web' as Captain Jimmy of the JAMES JOSEPH stated at the previous week NYS DEC MRAC meeting in using fishery data without any direct personal, and more so historic fishing knowledge by the author of the Boston Harbor winter flounder fishery.
Once again, and the well noted error of the author of 'IN SUPPORT OF FACT-BASED FISHERIES MANAGEMENT' who cherry picks data to best suit his blogging, without taking into account a many decades long full-time charter fishing operation who has seen the whip-saw decline, rebuilding then robust abundance, and a dramatic decline starting from a decade ago in both numbers seen along with the shrinking size of WF (winter flounder) which his loyal customer base has experienced in the 21st century.
The author Charles Witek conveniently neglects to mention a word he brought up a number of years back during MRIP discussions on NYS management of winter flounder by talking about 'extirpation' which essentially is a notably localized depletion or worse, extinction of a species within a distinct area. Captain Jason Colby of LITTLE SISTER charters out of Quincy, MA., mentioned the unique geographical waters of Boston Harbor area where WF are harvested by mobile gear commercial vessels and that he noticed the decimation of this rebuilt fishery when the previous director of the MA. fisheries, noticeably, but more so in substantially increased trip limits. That was the primary point of which Captain Jason has been stating time and again. The impact was not only due to the increased day trip quota, but the other economic driver with the increase in the number of commercial fishing vessel now targeting WF as it was now lucrative for these vessels to make a tow or two due to the amount of WF which could be landed.
Folks, this is what happens when you have an individual who blogs and only uses supporting dependent and independent data without being hands on and seeing this happen to fisheries firsthand along this coast.
How many times have we read from this author on his expertise of the ARS - American Red Snapper fishery - which was debunked due to the new approach in the collection of assessment data?
See: https://www.harte.org/news/red-snapper-count-discovers-great-population
https://www.harte.org/snappercount
To be continued....
Part 2:
ReplyDeleteMore so, in local fishery news maybe readers should be reminded about the positive news from latest tautog assessment which corresponded with the 'anecdotal' written and public comments by stakeholders in the NY, CT and RI region, and how Charles had to backtrack on what he previously wrote about the state of this fishery.
The most valuable lesson that I can pass along to the readers here is that Charles Witek continues to be a self-anointed expert on the health of a number of local, regional and coastal fisheries without having any professional direct involvement in either harvesting finfish for customers or working on the deck of a commercial fishing vessel.
It is sad to say here once again that the Boston Harbor winter flounder fishery is currently at a low biomass level, and I know how hard Captain Jason has worked in writing letters to both his state director and right up to Regional Director Mike Pentony on this matter. He cares about the current dismal state of this fishery, and it is not about the making of a living in operating a full-time charter business. He wishes it to be a viable and sustainably fishery for everyone who fishes within close proximity to the city of Boston and Quincy.
We should be applauding those in the for-hire industry who are advocating in protecting an historic fishery within the Quincy and Hull Bay area complex, and Charles Witek somehow twisting words and data to poorly suit his discourse on what a for-hire business owner has happened to a local fishery.
Simply put for even Charles Witek to understand:
If the WF are intercepted by higher harvesting rates outside of the Quincy - Hull Bay protected area, then there will be not only fewer, but smaller WF for any one recreational angler to bring home for a dinner or two.
Typical and disturbing, but not surprising from what I have seen written once again by Charles Witek.
Any questions or comments, I am always available to discuss these fishery issues...
EC Newellman
Welcome back, I've been missing you.
DeleteEvery time I see you post a commment, particularly one of your typically fact-free comments filed with vitriol and personal attacks, I know that I'm on the right path.
Because yes, facts matter. For that reason, I'm glad you brought up the tautog issue. It's a perfect example of the fact-based management issue. Back in 2017, I took a position based on the data available at that time, to the great displeasure of the ill-bred and hooting mob, one of whom so politely and elequently informed the ASMFC rep at a pubic hearing, "We think your science is bullcrap."
Last year, a new stock assessment painted a rosier picture. While considerable uncertainty remained, it represented a new vision for the fishery based on updated data, so it was necessary to change my views to match the facts, and not critcize the system as flawed because it didn't accord with my beliefs.
That's how science works--new knowledge leads to new understanding. When the understanding of the fishery changes in response to new knowledge, opinions must change to match the data; you don't attack the data in order to support your opinions. Unless, of course, you have better data, which isn't the case here.
But the bottom line is that I'm glad to see you back. When someone needs to fall back on personal attacks rather than fact-based arguments, and is unable to argue issues in a calm and rational manner, it's clear to myself and everyone else that they're playing a busted hand.
Charles,
ReplyDeleteLike I have pointed out to you in the past when you have accused me (and others apparently) of not presenting "facts" is that there is no data on the effects of rec fishing as a result of commercial excess, at least not in Boston Harbor or any of the bays and estuaries from Delaware to Labrador (as I previously mentioned and you fail to acknowledge). So what if you can cite studies that support killing more flounder? How can you have anything else if all the studies you have are based on killing as much fish of every species as possible ("MAXIMUM SUSTAINABLE YIELD")? That is how NOAA and all the SSC Scientists are directed and that is how our taxpayer dollars are spent. Is it wrong then to say that recreational fishermen are funding the studies that represent the needs of commercial fishing interests? Where are the hook and line studies of flounder fishing in the bays and harbors for rec fishermen?
THEN, in light of the fact that YOU can't produce them, wouldn't it be prudent to rely on eyewitness accounts? How can you say that thousands of recreational fishermen telling you "they add one plus one and they see two" is a problem for you?
The facts remain, in spite of anything you can say, 1. there is/was as of 2021 less than 5% of the flounder in Boston Harbor that there was in 2013 when the commercial quota was doubled. 2. the fish are smaller as they are not allowed to grow. 3. you claim (amazingly, without any facts to support that claim) that the issue "must be something else" like global warming, predators or oxygen depletion (all your words). It looks like YOU who is busted.
A lack of fact-based arguments seems to be a common flaw among for-hire, as well as commercial, operators, when the facts disagree with what they're trying to claim.
DeleteStates should have data on removals in state waters, as fishermen file VTRs which should include gear type and approximate fishing location. While such information isn't available on an indivudual basis, due to confidentiality concerns, you should be able to obtain it on an aggregate basis from your state fishery manager. If the state refuses to provide it, file a Freedom of Information request.
I can site statistics re flounder harvest because those statistics represent facts, not guesses, hopes, nor speculation. Maximum sustainable yield is not about killing "as much fish of every species as possible," but rather on maintaining stocks at healthy levels in the long term--that's what "sustainable" means, after all--and while MSY is the basis for calculating sustainability, harvest levels are set lower, based on optimum yield and the ABC, which accounts for management uncertainty. You need to get it through your head that the science isn't rigged against you; it's science, which mearly serves to find the truth, as well as it can be known. After that, policy is set by bureaucrats and, to a lesser extent, policicians. But the science just deals with the facts.
And yes, it is wrong to say that recreational fiushermen are funding the studies that represent the needs of commercial fishermen. First, with respect to flounder, I'm not aware of any studies that "represent the needs of commercial fishermen," second, the studies that are made are funded by taxpayers (most of whom don't fish at all, but might on occasion purchase commercially-caught product), academic institutions, non-govermental organizations, and both recreational and commercial trade organizations.
I can provide plenty of flounder studies on fish in the bays and estuaries. There is a lab here on Long Island who does a lot of work on just that subject, and I also know someone who wrote her PhD dissertation on just that topic. There's also been a substantial body of work that originated in Rhode Island, on then impacts of warming water, new predators, etc. on winter flounder populations. And guess what--it's not commercial fishing causing current problems inshore.
Eyewitness accounts of people lacking the facts needed to interpret what they see are useless. And fishermen lack the facts.
So, to take your closing comments, let's have your facts: How many winter flounder were present in Boston Harbor in 2013? How many were present in 2021. Please provide ytour estimate, how it was calculated, and the confidence intervals around each number.
If you can't provide those numnbers, than you don't have any facts. You also lack the ability to do a calculation leading to your 5% assertion.
Not sure where/when I said that the flounder problem "must" be something else (unless you're leaving out key woulds like, "that would suggest that the cause must be something else" that changes the context, but if I said "must" without qualifiers such as that, it would be an overstatement. But global warming, predators, and oxygen depletion are all demonstrated issues with flounder in inshore waters, most particularly in Long Island bays, where extensive studies have been conducted. Predators have also been cited in Rhode Island studies. So no, I'm not busted, athough I may be misquoted.
I see no point is stating my estimates as you will simply dismiss them as baseless. You sit on a high horse quoting stats as though they are gospel while we witness murder.
ReplyDeleteIt is pretty simple to extrapolate that a six fold increase in commercial effort over 6 years has been the cause of the demise of available flounder for the recreational fishermen 8 years from the start or you can continue to fool only yourself in citing that the murder we have witnessed is "actually someone killing themselves because it is all a game". The knives (draggers) are really made of oxygen and predators and this is all really just my imagination.
If you look at the similar discussions I had with "Mike" in 2013 I used the analogy of a pizza pie getting sliced. If there are (pick any number) 1 million fish that (would) enter Boston Harbor and the rec fishermen take a couple of hundred thousand of them before the water warms up then there are still loads of fish left to spawn. BUT if the draggers take half or 3/4 of them before they get to the harbor that leaves a smaller slice of the population for the recreational anglers. Then, if you repeat that process for many years in a row then the body of fish gets smaller and smaller in both size and numbers, just as we have seen. This isn't the rocket science you seem to want to make it out to be.
Better yet, as you are a lawyer, lets use an analogy of a courtroom. The government uses a few NOAA Scientists (who are paid by NOAA) and they say that there is no problem with the flounder population. My lawyer calls 100 (or 1000) eyewitnesses that all collaborate the same story that the flounder fishing in Boston Harbor took a steady decline as the dragging effort increased after the state doubled the daily quota.
ReplyDeleteIn cross examination, my lawyer calls David Pierce to the stand who he asks "how many boats were commercial flounder fishing in Ma. State Waters in 2012 as opposed to 2018?" The answer stated is 2012 had 6 and 2018 had 28. Further questioning reveals that "fishery managers" seem to have no desire to measure the impact of excess commercial effort on recreational fishermen.
"The case of the rec fisherman" appeals to the jury to believe their eyes and ears / Use some common sense.
If you are on the jury (not a "by the book fishery representative") , what is your verdict?
Actually, that's not how it would work.
DeleteIf someone broughtn legal action to challenge a NMFS regulation, the court would be limited to examining the administrative record, and determine whether there was "substantial evidence" on the record to support NMFS' action. If the record showed that NMFS scientists said that there is no problem with the population, and had data to support that conclusion, the court would uphold NMFS' decision, because it would be NMFS responsibiity to determine the credibiity of witnesses, not the court's, and if NMFS found the scientists more credible than 1,000 scientifically untrained eyewitnesses, the court woud not interfere with that decision.
And there are no jury trials in administrative appeals. which are governed by thge appropriate section of the Administrative Procedures Act, and in actions brought against NMFS as adopted in the "Judicial Review" section of Magnuson-Stevens.
T9he situation that you dewscribe isn't much different from the fazts in Sustainable Fisheries Coalition v. Raimondo, where the court found that eyewitness testimony as to the damage done by industrial-scale midwater trawlers was no substitute for scientific evidence, and overturned the NMFS regulation creating the inshore herring buffer zone, because without science, and with nothing more than eyewitness testimony and common sense supporting them, the regulations did not meet the minimum legal standard, and must be vacated.
"Fact Based Management"
ReplyDeleteCharles-
While you are in support of "fact based management" I will give you another scenario:
You and your neighbor boarder each other and what your neighbor (who is just east of you) does directly effects your living standard. Fair to say?
One day, your neighbor decides to raise pigs and gets all the permits required so as to 100% legally do so. You live in a "right to farm" community and the town is so excited about his endeavor they give him permits for twice as many pigs as he intended to raise. Now, whenever the wind blows out of the east, the stench in your house is unbearable. You ask him to do something about it but there is really nothing, sort of stopping the pig farming that he can do, so he tells you to take a hike. You complain to the town and they see nothing wrong with what he is doing because he is 100% lawful and this is, after all a "right to farm" community.
You are a lawyer so you sue your neighbor for "damages" but the judge tells you that you are imagining things. "Do you have any proof that the stench is so intolerable? Where are your facts" You do not have any scientific backing so the judge tosses the case out. The stench gets worse and worse every year and whenever (both times) you get a town official to your house to experience the aroma for themselves the wind is out of the west. Worse, now the town officials do not want to discuss the issue with you any more. They say you are just a nasty, crazy guy who can't get along with his neighbors. The "facts", as they are, do not work for you even though your situation seems that you were wronged. The town is very happy with the extra income the pig farm brings in and does not want to upset that so they have no incentive to listen to you complain. How are "facts" helping your poor situation? Is it right that you have to move?
Does anyone read your blog except you and me?
Captain Jason Colby
Little Sister Charters
www.LittleSister1.com
617-755-3740
Jason@LittleSister1.com
That's why you check the zoning before you buy a house. If you buy in a place where people can raise pigs, or near an airport, or a rifle range, and then complain about the stink or the noise, the court should find that you have no remedy. You haven't been wronged, because the neighbor is within his/her legal rights, conducting a permitted activity, and you would be foolish for buying in a place where such activities are permitted.
DeleteWe see that sort of thing happen all of the time. Here on Long Island, people moved next to my favorite trap and skeet range, and are trying to shut it down because they don't like the noise. In Queens, NYC, they complain about the airplane noise from LaGurdia and try to get the flight patterns changed. But they have no legal grounds, because they knew what they were getting into when they purchased their properties.
I live in a "right to farm community" and no one raises pigs here. In fact, I believe that it would certainly be a reasonable legal challenge if someone actually tried to raise pigs as a commercial endeavor.
ReplyDelete"The point" I made is that you would be forced to move (or live with the stench) and legal or not, another person should not make your house unsuitable to live in "normally". The "point to the point" is that the decision to double the winter flounder limits for draggers in Ma. state waters could not have had "the intent" of eliminating the recreational fishing opportunity for thousands of people and yet it did, all for the gain of a couple of dozen draggers that were not fishing there before (there was no pig farm when you moved in).
To take YOUR justification to the draggers (pig farm) ruining my business (house next door) the law (the daily limit) was changed. I did not agree with the doubling of the commercial quota, in fact I spoke out and fought against it. I had a petition with hundreds of signers that all were opposed to the doubling of the commercial quotas and "the public comments" were all opposed to the increase as well. The government, the fishery managers and "the facts" failed the general public. Smell that!
The point that I made is that you would have no one to blame but yourself for buying a home next to a potential pig farn.
DeleteYou chose to enter a natural resource based business, knowing (or, at least, through due diligence you should have known) that regulators had the legal authority to increase commercial quotas and/or place additional restrictions on anglers, and that the fish that your clients would target could also be impoacted by changing oceanographic and environmenbtal conditions. Yet you chose to accept that business risk.
It turns out that the risk became reality, and that one or more of those factors caused flounder to become less available to your customers, and that your business suffered as a result. That's unfortunate, but risk is always a part of the business equation, and you came out on the wrong end of this one. That sort of thing happened. I used to work for Lehman Brothers; they made a bad bet on the bond market and went broke. No one came in to save them from their own business decisions. Nor, in a capatalist system, should they. Financial freedom includes the freedom to make bad choices.
In your example, a person buying a home in an area legally zoned for a pig farm, homeless shelter, strip club, nursery school or other source of annoyance is accepting the risk that such facility will be built. It's not his neighbor's fault for taking a legally permitted action, it's his fault for exposing himself to a risk that he wasn't prepared to accept.
You may not have agreed to the changes in the flounder regulations, but they were always a possibility. You may have presented a petition opposing the change, but you did so knowing--or, again, you should have known--that petitions are all but worthless in the regulatory process. There may have been a lot of public comment against the change, but in regulatory proceedings, it is the quality and not the quantity, of the comments that matter, and from what I understand, the public comments didn't provide much in the way of hard numbers or scientific support, but were rather only non-expert testimony of people describing what they think that they observed. And as the court noted in Sustainable Fisheries Coalition v. Raimondo, "Though these comments certainly provide anecdotal support for the final rule, they are not adequate substitute for scientific evidence of localized depletion..."
Which only makes sense when you think about it. After all, at one time, people all "knew" that the sun revolved around the Earth. After all, they saw the sun rise in the east every moring, more across the sky, and set in the wast in the evening. Given what they saw with their very own eyes, it was only common sense that the sun moved while the Earth stayed still. But once scientists, and in particular Galileo and Isaac Newton, came up with the scientific observations and the mathematics that addressed gravity and its effect on orbiting bodies, we discovered that eyewitness accounts and common sense were wrong, and it was the Earbh that moved 'round the sun.
So yes, science matters.
Thank you! I feel so much better now that you explained it like that.
DeleteOOPS, there are still no more flounder for recreational fishermen, my customers, our children and our grandchildren. This is the legacy of "fact based fishery management.)
Thank you some more.